Why did you co -star with Shigeru Aoki?Talk about "Jam Session Ishibashi Foundation Collection x Yasumasa Morimura M Type Maiku" Yasumasa Morimura's mythology "

Currently, a solo exhibition by Yasumasa Morimura, "Jam Session Ishibashi Foundation Collection x Type Morimura Type Morimura, Yasushi Morimura, Yasushi Morimura -Yasushi Morimura's Myth" is being held at the Artizon Museum of Art, Tokyo.The exhibition is until January 10, 2022.

The "jam session" is a project in which the Ishibashi Foundation Collection, which is one of the best quality in Japan, from Western paintings, ceramics, Chinese and Japanese calligraphy to contemporary art, and contemporary artists.Following the first Tomoko Konoike, which was held last year, Yasumasa Morimura was selected this time.

From the collection of about 2,800 points, Morimura chose a “co -star partner” by Shigeru Aoki (1904) by Shigeru Aoki (1904) by Shigeru Aoki, a early -generation Western painter who lived in the Meiji era.In this exhibition, Morimura is dressed as 85 characters, as a reborn in the Seafood.Morimura, who has been transformed into an old -time east and west person, such as Andy Warhol, Finsent van Van Gogh, Frida Carlo, and Vermeer's "Pearl earring Girl", dares to Aoki from among the many collections.Did you choose the Sea Sea Sea?

This time, Mika Kuraya, who was the director of the Yokohama Museum of Art and was involved in the “Romanticism of the Modern Japanese and Modern Japanese Modern Art, 2003), interviewed Morimura.She talked about the acceptance and importance of Japanese modern art, the image of Aoki's person visible from this exhibition, and the present and present in Morimura.

"I hate Japanese modern art."

Mika Kuraya (Kuraya): It was impressive that the exhibition catalog said, "I hated modern Japan, but recently my eyes have come."A person who specializes in modern Japan like me is pleased that "Mr. Morimura finally turned his eyes!"Is it okay to see from that?

Yasumasa Morimura (Morimura) :: I was born and raised in Japan, became interested in art, and started doing oil painting in high school, but once Aoki Shigeru wanted to paint in modern Japan.Now I think it's close to the feeling.But my longing when I was young, I went to Manet, Van Gogh, and Western paintings like that.At that time, I wanted to learn the so -called authentic paintings, not Japan, and I felt strong.

The mood continues for a long time, and when I was absorbed quickly, I was hooked on various things ahead, and I went to contemporary art in the United States, so I was in the summer vacation of the second year of high school.It was like "oil painting is already old" (laughs).

Kuraya: Fufufu (laughs).

Morimura: So Japanese painters were almost unusual for a long time, and there was no problem.However, it is Matsumoto Shusuke who changed that perception.Exhibitions scheduled at the Iwate Prefectural Museum of Art in 2011 ("Yasumasa Morimura" Human Landscape " -For Hotori Funakoshi Matsumoto Matsumoto Shusuke Matsumoto".) There was a time to discuss the event, but the sense of the era immediately after the earthquake and the sense of crisis of the era that Matsumoto and others drew overlapped, and the way of the painters live and the way of the painters at the time.But I felt, "It's really nice."

I showed a lot of sketches and art books at the prefectural art museum, but what I was so surprised was that the sketches I drew mainly when I was in high school.I didn't know at all about Matsumoto Shusuke at that time, but when I didn't know, I felt like I was drawing something like "painting is something like this".I felt very close.I guess there's something like the roots of my senses.

Morimura: There is a controversy with the sentence written by Kosuke, "Live painter".In this exchange, Kanesuke says something like "Is your doing a store in France?", But he refutes like this.The ultimate goal is neither a Japanese picture nor a Western picture.The big goal is to draw a wonderful picture beyond that, not an international, Japan or a foreign country, and we are going towards it.

After reading it, I thought, "Oh, this is completely different from the so -called globalism."thought.And we thought that we needed to take over the spirit of Matsumoto Completion.While feeling that is the homework imposed on our later generations.

As with Goro Manketsu, they are completely misreading Western art and draws a kettai picture that can not be seen anywhere in the world.However, it is Van Gogh and Aiko who painted from Japanese culture and art, and if they were able to make them think and make them interested in various things, they will be dressed as "Missed by misreading" and are dressed as Completion and Man.I made a work.But unfortunately, it's still not a very popular work (laughs).If I had a chance, I wanted to do a work that would be dressed as a modern Japanese art, but for example, an overseas museum said, "Western art is a welcome but I don't need Japan."

Well, with that kind of feeling, I gradually became interested in modern Japan, and went back to Shusuke, wore kimonos but also wear clothes, and connected the luminous to the literality to the colloquial.The important point of this exhibition is that it is connected, and that there is Shigeru Aoki as a painter of the same era.

Decision to make "Seafood" as a motif

Kuraya: Mr. Morimura looked at the work (Self -Pot / Youth (AOKI), 2016, 21), which is dressed as Shigeru Aoki's self -portrait ("Self -portrait", 1903), and the red outline, which is characteristic of Aoki, is a background wall.I thought it was very interesting to be pulled out and pulled.In fact, I don't know how much Aoki's self -portrait is.It is a strange picture that draws a number of contours and only the face is made before you decide which is your body.In other words, I think that both young people named Shigeru Aoki and modern Japan mean that they do not know their outline well.

This also leads to the structure of Morimura's video work, "Mythology of Washigatari".Aoki told Aoki as Morimura told Aoki, saying, "You're pretty good at painting. I did a moment."As Morimura says to Mr. Morimura, it seems that Aoki is telling Morimura.And that is a magnificent story of the modern Japan that has become lost, and spreads to the Mae -Type Sea Hoya series.

I've been saying that modern artists, such as Man and Liu Kishida, have been interesting and have many hints for modern artists.But in many cases, as Morimura -san felt, it was treated like a "embarrassing relatives in the countryside".Compared to European paintings, the colors that were boiled in soy sauce with low saturation and the feeling of the model of the model may not be easy to dislike (bitter smile).Nevertheless, it was shocking that Mr. Morimura said earlier that it was no problem without before.

Morimura: That's right.There was no problem.I didn't know how to handle it, and even out of the question.It's a problem in myself, and I finally faced it, so I'm glad I did it.

I'm growing up in an environment in which I speak in Japanese under the influence of Japanese culture and something, but I've been wandering around Western art history, and I'm sure I can't return to Japan.be.For a long time, I've been told, "Isn't it better to do Japanese things? You can do whatever your method can be a theme."When I traveled mentally in the West and thought in Frida Carlo, "I finally came to Mexico!"So, I went around and thought that Yukio Mishima would come back ...At last, it feels like I returned home temporarily in Matsumoto.

The theme of the exhibition ("Morimura Yasumasa: Ego of Sukura Tokyo 2020 -Wandering Nippon I", 2020) was exactly what I was in Japan?However, since I was in such a time, the request from the Artizon Museum, which collects various works from the east and west, felt very perfect.At the beginning of the project, there was also a plan to use self -portrait of Manet as the theme.

Kuraya: Oh, yes, I was wondering if it was a plan for Shigeru Aoki from the beginning, but there was also a way to choose Western painting from the collection of the Artison Museum!

Morimura: Of course there was.However, considering the theme on the extension of last year's "Ego of Sukura", Aoki Shigei, one of his alles, is the seafood (1904).It was also a bold decision to choose a single piece by choosing one piece of work.

Kuraya: I think that is exactly the case that "Seafood" contains all of Aoki.In "Myth of Watakata", Morimura -san, "Seafood", exceeds the level of the selfishness of youth energy, and becomes a "myth" by being called by someone from the individual.It was said that it was such a lucky work.

"Seafood" with subtle danger

Morimura: When you first look at the Seafood, many people think, "What a good picture (like halfway)?" But if you want to attract my own theme, the first thing you need to look at is your feet. It looks like the tip of the person on the right is not drawn, but you can see that it is hidden behind the waves and sand. In addition, each one that is drawn is different, and at first glance it feels like it is drawn in parallel, but in fact the depth is conscious. At the draft stage, it was relatively flat, so as you draw, the consciousness of the back will sprout. However, I don't think that Aoki was deeply thinking and drawing. I guess it was a judgment in search of the strength as a picture, and I guess it must be said that this is a picture that passes on a flat plate.

Kuroya: Aoki's teacher, Kiyoki Kuroda, was trying to establish a mural that had been popular in Europe in the 19th century at the time in Japan.He decorates the western architecture of the Meiji era, which is completed one after another.The secret is to finish it as a flat feeling as much as possible so that the view of the viewer does not turn around with a strange perspective on the wall.People also arrange them in a row, because if they are stacked, they will be born.I guess Aoki's head had an image of such a thing at first.But as it is drawing, it shines more and more.

Morimura: I was living in a world where I learned perspective, so I had to give a sense of perspective.I think the ambiguity and hesitation are left in the work, and I think it is a picture that gives puzzle people of posterity.I think he just wanted to draw a good picture.I used the word "thought", but it was the fate of this picture that my personality changed and warped.

Kuraya: Aoki was interested in "myths" regardless of the east and west of the Western."Seafood", which has the source of ancient sea such as Manyoshu, also has the atmosphere.But in the case of "Seafood", it is rather than the level of the theme, but by using the perspective of Mr. Morimura, both ends of the screen are blurred, and the people appear from behind the fog of time.I also think that it is a level of expression that looks like it disappears somewhere.Alternatively, the person is getting older from right to left, and there is a ring structure that depicts the life of life.

Morimura: But if you draw the world of myths, if you really have a myth, it will not be a "myth" anymore.What is a picture?There is a limit of Aoki there, but I think that the Aoki of Seafood is working hard without knowing it, so I think it could be a "myth".It's not good to know too much, it's the difficulty of making things.Such a subtle dangerous picture is "Seafood".

Kuraya: Aoki hates Kuroda, and there is an episode that he left the room when he entered the classroom.But after all, the ideas like murals are learning somewhere.

Morimura: I think Aoki was very lost.In fact, there should be many painters who are faithful to Professor Kuroda's teachings, the type of painting that can be praised by the teachers, and a strategically advanced picture.But I feel that Aoki is strangely lost.Moreover, it is not a hesitation that Kuroda -sensei wants to get lost, but anyway, Shigeru Aoki is a person who has a good way to live, a type of painter who can not travel well.So I like him.

Kuraya: The red line seen in Aoki's self -portrait, which was first talked about, was used by European Academy painters at the time to attach it to the underwriting, and some of Kuroda's works.You can also see it.This may also be the influence of Aoki from his teacher.But Aoki's that goes beyond the scope of the underwriting, and it keeps getting lost like a badly behaved "hesitation chopsticks", and it feels quite strange.

Morimura: That red line is the biggest feature of Aoki, and without that, the picture will not be established.If you leave it without a line, it will be a messy chaos.There is a red line there, so somehow order is born.He knows that even if it becomes clear, it will be boring.By the way, he keeps his messed up ego.I think that it is a good picture due to that tension.

Kuraya: The last year of the fisherman return to the seafood again (1908).That looks sad, it looks like a very boring picture.

Morimura: I'm sorry, but it seemed to be an extension of the student contest, so it was too simple, and the complexity of the past has not come out (bitter smile).Everything is outlined, with eyes and nose, and all are explained.Although chaos disappeared and order was born, it is a picture that tells me that "Oh, it is not so interesting in the world."

The moment when the sensation overlaps over 100 years, the real pleasure

Kuraya: Let's continue talking while touching Morimura's career.I think Morimura's generation was the first generation that was evaluated by the world as "Japanese contemporary art is interesting."The evaluation is not an exotic "Japan", but rather realizes that it is established as a boiled boiled culture, which creates expressions that are transmitted to any region in the world.I think it was something.

For example, for young people who love hip -hop, the older generation said, "No, that's from the issues of black American black poverty and discrimination, and I like it lightly.You may not be licked. "However, young people can no longer deny that they are such people because they form themselves through misreading hip -hop.But there are countless people in the world, so that expression is accepted by various areas.I feel that Mr. Morimura's story is close to this.

Also, in the 1990s, it is a very simple era, and it seems that the world -class "evaluation" in this sense was not always regarded as a success in the international market.

Morimura: That's right.At that time, I was interested in the modern culture of Europe, the United States and Japan, while experiencing the bubble discrimination period and the collapse in the late 1980s, which suddenly went to Venice Biennale.After that, even if I lived in Osaka in Japan, an environment was born around me that was not so difficult to publish works in various countries abroad.I think that we had a substantial debut in the situation where the context of art history was changing, which cannot be considered separately into two lines, Japanese art history and Western art history.I feel a little responsible.

Kuraya: I see.

Morimura: At least, I shouldn't have aimed at the world's world -class art culture.To be rough, it would be nice if the price of the work would be higher in the world of art, if the work would be collected, and the work was sold out at the art fair that would lead to the collector, it was a successful way.It was not the value.So, if you are positioned as the starting point of context of contemporary art that is conscious of the current economy, I think "wait a minute".You have to talk about the premise first, as it will be quite unsuitable.For example, I don't use katakana's "art".

Kuraya: "Art" is a word made as a translation in Meiji 5.I think this is also the landscape of our hometown as our "embarrassing relatives", and it is important to keep using the word "art" without forgetting it.

Morimura: Shigeru Aoki has been positioned as an important painter in Japanese art history since the Meiji era, but the theme of this exhibition is that he rediscovered his position while imagining a slightly different history.If this is something like a historical picture scroll, a magnificent story, it may be because of this consciousness.Rather than the idea of tracing the art, culture, and the history of Japan after the Meiji era, I intend to re -edit it and replace it with different history and art history.

Kuraya: It's an intentional "misreading".You mentioned that Japanese things are not popular with Western items, but I feel that Morimura -san must keep doing it without being involved in popularity.

Morimura: Kuraya -san, it's not another person (laughs).We need a person who makes the work that way, but needs the person who curates the problem.I'm very worried how many people around me say "Soya!"

Kuraya: I accept that it really involves the essence of curators.At the Tokyo National Museum of Museum of Modern Art, which holds Koga Harue (1929) and Tsuguharu Fujita's "Ats Island Bay Battle" (1943), which was used in the background of this M.I've been working on reorganization of history for a long time.That's why I think I am also responsible for Morimura -san.

However, since the curator is a historian, there is a big part from the artist's approach.Morimura -san, as if he had been doing the Sea Shadow, how many harpoons that stabbed fish were there, where they were connected, and where this person's feet were placed.I feel that it is a work unique to artists to solve it.I think it would be really good if the artist and the curator complemented each other and continued to dig up the "relatives' history".

Morimura: I tried "Seafood" and thought, "I'm really relatives."I replaced this picture, but at first I thought it was impossible.The ratio of the height and the length of the foot were completely different, and I was convinced that Aoki was definitely deformed because it was a person who draws with imagination, not reality.However, when you actually try it, it really overlaps.Even though there were differences in proportions, I was able to go as it was without the sitting height, the amount of stomach, or the image processing.I think it would be hard to do this if it was a picture of Rodin's statue or Michelangelo, but I was surprised at relatives and the same DNA.

It is also connected as a field feeling.The atelier where Aoki was drawing, and the site of Tsuruhashi in Osaka, where he is taking photos, has overlapped over 100 years.This was the real pleasure of the site and a great discovery.

Kuraya: It's very erotic to understand by stacking your body (laughs).Speaking of which, Mr. Morimura was mentioned in the eroticism of Sea Shadow in the myth of Washigatari.He pierced a soft shark with a sharp harpoon and said, "It's quite bad, depending on what you see."In fact, I thought it was always disgusting (laughs).

Morimura: That's right.I guess there are many people who think just because they don't say it.

Kuraya: Morimura -san earlier, is a very different thing that the work becomes "myth" and the work is called by someone beyond personal intentions, and that drawing a myth is completely different.It was important.Just because you draw mythical theme doesn't mean you can become a "myth".In that sense, Aoki's "Wadatsumi no Iro Kono Shrine" (1907) and "Owanmuchi -only" (1905), which have adopted the subject of the Kojiki, could not be a "myth".It may be a picture of the theme.But I think there might have been a hidden eroticism problem, and in fact, the path to "myth" might have opened.

For example, in Wadatsumi no Iro -Kono, it is well hidden by trees, but at the end of the two women's eyes is the crotch of Yukihiko Yama.Also, in Owaramochi, the right side of the kisagaihime is trying to revive the dead onum cinnomikoto, squeezing his milk with his left hand.That alone is "a lot of trouble", but if you look closely, you are holding the crotch of Onam Chinomikoto!Myth is the story of the generation of life.There is an essential sex element.This awareness of this fresh sex was, for example, Kiyoki Kuroda.

Morimura: Well, Kuroda is somehow smooth.

Kuraya: 20 years old, and later, I have a free relationship with my wife, Fukuda Tane, is amazing at the time.It's no wonder if you burn it with your consciousness (laughs).

Morimura: I think Shigeru Sakamoto, who was a rival in Aoki and the same town, liked Tane Fukuda.At the same time, I think Sakamoto had longed for Aoki.

Kuraya: Well, is that so?It's like Natsume Soseki's "Kokoro".Two men are holding one woman.However, it is actually two men who are really attracted through deep love and hatred.

Morimura: Go to Kokoro (laughs).But certainly, the painters of that era had mentality leading to Soseki.

Morimura Yasumasa was born in Osaka in 1951 in Osaka. In 1985, he made his debut in Japan and overseas after his debut with a cellphoporite photo dressed as Van Gogh. In 2014, he served as an artistic director of Yokohama Matrieennale. "Yasumasa Morimura: Art History of Self -Picture: When I Me" and I Meet "I" (Kokusai Museum of Art, 2016), "Ego of Scrap Tokyo 2020 -Wandering Nippon Me" (Hara Museum of Art "(Hara Museum of Art" , 2020), "Honki, play with the fluttering" (Toyama Prefectural Museum, 2020), etc. In 2018, "Morimura @ Museum" was opened in Kita -Kagaya, Osaka. His books are "Yukue of Self -Page" (Kobunsha Shinsho) and many others. - Mika Kuraya Born in Chiba Prefecture. She completed Chiba University Graduate School. After working as the director of the Tokyo National Museum of Museum of Modern Art, she has been the director of the Yokohama Museum of Art since 2020. The main exhibitions (including joint curations) to "Waiting for the Video-Video, to Today" (Tokyo National Museum of Modern Art, 2009), "Nugu Painting-Japanese Nude 1880-1945" (same, the same) 24th Rinjin Major Encouragement Prize, 2011-12), "Jiro Takamatsu Mysteries" (same, 2014-15), "Tsuguharu Fujita, all collections exhibited." : Living joy "(same, 2017-18)," Window exhibition: Travel to Art and Architecture over Windows "(same, 2019-2020). She was a special award at the 55th Venice Biennale International Art Exhibition of the Japan Museum, "Abstract Speaking: Sharing Uncertainty and Other Collective Acts" (2013). His main work is "Liu Kishida I want to know more" (Tokyo Art, 2019) and others.